Jared/Jon 9 - Thoughts on Faith



(Stuff])
Jon asks a Question regarding Faith

Hey

Do you have anything to say about faith that we could use in that group I
started at school???


Jared's Legnthy Reply

I received your question just after you sent it but didn't reply because
that is one heavy question whether or not you realise it. Anyway I went
home and did some heavy thinking about (since I was thinking about it
myself anyway) and here goes:

Firstly I would like to define the difference between faith and belief
as I see it at the moment;
Faith- confidence or trust in God's ability to work in our lives
Belief- conviction/confidence that there is a God.
Now since I've got that out of the way on to my spiel.
Belief in God and faith in God are two completely different things which
are closely intertwined (linked). Belief in God says that there is a God
and that he sent his son Jesus Christ to save us. As opposed to faith
which says God has the ability to heal this person and even if the first
person you pray for healing for isn't healed not getting disheartened
but praying for the next person for healing again. Basically faith is
the ability to be knocked down and still get up and try again. It
therefore is possible to believe in God without having faith in God ie
not trusting in him. But it is not possible to have faith in God without
believing in him, it's like saying 'I have faith this ground will
continue to support my weight but I do not believe it is there' sheer
idiocy.
I believe that faith is something that grows as we walk with God, the
longer we stand by God's side the more miracles we see and the more we
see of him and by these our faith in him grows. This is why the gift of
faith is such a great gift [1 Cor 12:9] it allows us to step outside our
own knowledge and understanding to have faith that god will cause
something to happen [Matthew 17:20].
The coolest thing about God (or at least one of them) is his faith in us
[Psalm 146:6]. You know the line by Satellite that goes "when I turn to
you; no matter how small my step; you trip running to welcome me". God
believes in us and whenever we turn back to him we find him not a
million miles away waiting for us to come to him but rather right behind
us waiting for us turn away from the path we are treading [Matthew
7:13].
Doubts are a major blockage to faith [Matthew 21:21-22] they tell us
that we aren't "great" like an evangelical and God won't give us the
power to move mountains. We have to remember what Jesus said "you have
to become like little children" [Matthew 18:3] one of the things about
little children is that they haven't been disenchanted about the world
and taught cynicism yet and will believe whatever they are taught. I
will know illustrate using a story (which I hope the person who told it
to me won't mind): There was once a small Catholic boarding school which
was overcrowded, yet they did not have much money at all. Anyway one day
a vacant lot went up beside them and was up for sale from the
government. They managed to scrounge the money in order to purchase it
and pay a contractor to build a new wing for them. Then before they
managed to get money to the government mountains of rubble was dumped on
the site. They knew that they would not be able to get the money
together to buy the property and remove the rubble as well as pay the
contractor. The nuns were dispairing when the children piped up and ask
'Why don't we ask God to move the pile?' the nuns agree all the while
thinking it won't work. Anyway everyone then leaves for the holidays and
lo and behold when they came back to the school they found a vacant lot
beside them once more. They found out later that the government had
taken the mountain and used it to make a new pier." Now compare this to
Matthew 21:21-22 "Jesus replied, 'I tell you the truth, if you have
faith and do not doubt...you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw
yourself into the sea," and it will be done. If you believe, you will
receive whatever you ask for in prayer." Now think about it a mountain
of rubble went and was thrown into the sea to make a pier, despite the
doubts of the nuns, through the belief of little children.
Belief also limits faith in some ways which in turn limits God. For
since God works through our faith then if we doubt something will happen
God is unlikely to make it happen for us. I'm going to use myself as an
example here, I believe that only one person ever received all the
spiritual gifts and that was Jesus and I do not belive it is possible
for a person to receive all of them, this means that I will probably
never receive all of them even though other people may actually prove my
belief to be incorrectly founded.
See also Matthew 9:2-7, Matthew 9:20-22, Matthew 15:21-28, Mark
10:46-52.
God bless,
Jared May-trix


Jon's Adds to that

To add to that heres a Story I just read:
During the days of the great sailing Vesials, there was a famous Sea captian
who was crossing the Atlantic from Liverpool to New York. Part way through
the trip they encounted a Huge storm. The waves were Gigantic, the wind blew
with hurricain force and the ship was tossed vinantally around the place.
The passangers were terrior stricken, pulling on their life vests and
preparing for the worst. The Captian's 8 year old daughter was abord the
boat, and was awakened by the Noise. SHe cried out asking what was wrong.
They told her of the storm and the Conditions.
She asked "Is my father on deck?"
They assured her that he was.
She smiled, lay back down, and fell back asleep.

Well, I guess that sums it up nicely.
Were not supposed to worrie about things, cause the good Lord will provide,
and will protect, but as Human we have taught oursleves to look at the
problims, insted of the goals, and to dought all the time, when we
shouldn't. We can't do anything by ourselves, BUT God can for us, and that
is often too easy to forget.
To sum up one of the messages I just got on Heartline -When Jesus walked on
the water, Peter wanted in, and he called out to Jesus, "Command me to come
to you".
He now knew that if God wants us to do something, he will make it possible
for us to do it.
So he walked out on the water and took a few steps. But he looked around,
and became afraid, seeing the big waves and everything.
"But like us, Peter gets
distracted with all the problems in doing what Jesus asks, all the
things that can go wrong in his dream of faith, and he becomes
afraid."
So he started to sink.
A child would simply get out of the boat and walk to Jesus. They would
notice that they are doing it and keep going, not look at the probllims and
telling themselves "This is impossible"

Thats enough for right now I think
Jon


And Jared's Reply

You hear stories of kids stepping out on to a busy road because someone
they know or something they like is on the other side. They do not
understand the consequences but know that that is where they want to be.
Not taking this analogy too far (ie getting run over) we should be like
this in the pursuit of Jesus. We should ignore the consequences in
trying to reach him, for if we are stead-fast in our pursuit of him then
he will protect us. We should ignore the ignorant who say that it isn't
possible, the fearful who say that we might be hurt, and the back biters
who try to dishearten us, we should keep our focus on him who died for
us.
God bless,
Jared May-trix


And a reply from Jon

Thats a Real good way of looking at it. Kids don't even relize that there
are Consequences.
Wouldn't it be great if we could do things without worrying at all. Not just
ignoring or denying the problim, but not even realizing there is one.

I was reading another thing, where some guy was having a problim with some
aspect of his life, so he went and talked to someone else. He Basically said
to cast All your Burdens on the Lord. So he went and prayed, and right away
felt them leaving. They were still there, but he didn't have to worrie about
them anymore, cause they were no longer his problim.

So we shouldn't be worrieing about our problims, cause thats not our job.
And also, think about this:
When the Isrilites got to the Promis Land, they saw that the people in the
Place were GInits, and were afraid of them, but if you to look at one of
them standing next to a "Normal" person from the SKy tower, Could you tell
the Differance.
HOw much higher is God than the Sky Tower??
The BIggist problim to us is Absolutly Nothing to God, so why do we worry
about it. We have to look at the GOal, and let God look at that Problims
with it. We still have to work at them, but shouldn't get consumed by them.

Thanks again - Jon


In reply to that, By Jared

The problem though with ignoring the consequences is that although we
may end up doing the Lord's will we could hurt people and the planet in
the process which does not please God. We should worry about the
consequences which affect other people and could cause them to stumble
in their pursuit of God. Refering to Romans 14 "Instead make up your
mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brothers way. As
one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is
unclean in itself...If your brother [however] is distressed because of
what you eat, you are no longer acting in love." we should go hard out
in pursuit of God, yet that pursuit in God is not like the rat race
where you want to get to front by any means necessary, but rather in
order to triumph you should make sure not to shove anyone and, to take
that to extremes, carry your fellow runner if he falls over. For it is
not your fellow runner you are trying to triumph over but rather Satan,
and any push or shove that you give to a fellow runner may not hinder
him but will certainly hinder you for that is Satan's will, not God's.
I am not saying that we shouldn't cast our burdens upon the Lord, for it
is impossible to rid yourself of them through the law, but we should
make sure that our burdens are not things which we should we work at
trying to break the habit for otherwise if it is a habit then we will
just by trying to cast the same sin onto Jesus' back which from a
logical point of view is idiotic it would be better to work at th4e
problem than ridding yourself of the consequences.
God bless,
Jared May-trix
ps Why use drugs, God is the Most High!


Jon's Reply

I was accually just using that as an example. I totally agree that we need
to be considering the Consequences all the time, But if our Goal is to Build
up people, the its kinda hard to also hurt them. Also, if were following
God, then we Should be thinking about others more than oursleves, make sure
that we don't hurt them, even if it hurts us a bit.

I must Apoligise for this Lame attempt at a Letter today, As I am VERY
tired, and feel like I'm about to Suddenly fall unconsious.

One thing that seems to ring out in that was how the Devil can cause us to
trip. You said that were trying to Put ourselves in the Frount of the Cue,
pushing others to the Back. But the thing is, while on earth, there is No
Cue. Once we Die, then its Straight to Heaven, still no Cue. So we shouldn't
even really be thinking like it is any form of Race.
One of the Devils most powerful tool is pride. Often Leaders of the Church
thank the person for a Good message, and things like that, and these can get
to their head, so they begin trying to be the Best Preacher ever, but miss
the Mark by Miles. Were all working for the Same cause, and None of us are
"Winners", God's the Winner, and if were all preaching for God, were all
Crossing the Line at the Same time. Everyone wins. Everyone gets the Gold
Medle....

I really want to Add more, But can't think of anything at the Moment, cause
I am too tired, SO I'll go to bed now.

Thanks - Jon


Jared's Reply

Though we may not be winners we don't have to be losers either. The
devil has already lost and lost substantially, Jesus has kicked his arse
from here to eternity and now has a nice snake skin belt to set off his
white gears [see Genesis 1:1-15 Jesus crushed Satan's head but I won't
go into that now]. What the devil's goal is now, is to make sure as many
of us don't cross the finish line at all, for even if you're the last
person across the line you've still completed the race; the bible does
say the first shall be last, and the last shall be first. The devil
snaps at our heal poisoning us thinking about that the race will never
end and we aren't worthy to complete the race. He whispers in our ear
discouraging us and hardening our hearts to other people running next to
us making us wish to trip them because they're going hard out to the
line or even worse he could make us focus only upon the line and
completing the race thinking 'look at the great effort I'm putting in
for God' but we forget our fellows and ignore them in their plight or
shoving them back so we can get in front. But Satan isn't the person at
the back of the runners it's Jesus it's him urging us on helping us when
we fall and carrying us if the need arises and encouraging all. Satan
however stands at the end in his own glory thinking 'how great am I' and
yells abuse at all the runners.
I hope you get what I mean with this and not take it too far.
God bless,
Jared


Jon's Reply (Dated 20th July - His Birthday)

Wow, reading that Gave me a new thouoght (Jesus at the Back, and First will
be last)
We need to humble oursleves, so that our goal is to help others, not really
ourselves, so then, the person who humbles himself, who crosses the Line
last, will acually be the first accross.
Jesus no dought will win, and if hes at the back, well then that shows that
the Statement first last, last first Is correct.
So we should be helping others who don't have as much faith as us cross the
line (Romans 14 again), and in order to do that we need to also be behind
them, helping them up when they fall and keeping their minds on the goal,
just like you said Jesus Does.
I hope you get what I mean, and That I havn't taken your story too far.
If a Leader was to stand at the Frount of the Pack and Yell back, "Yeah,
I've made it first, now you guys are alloud to cross", hes not really
setting a good example for the rest is he. He saying that hes better than
everyone else (Perfact), but only Jesus is Perfact, and hes the one Right at
the Very back, the Very last to Cross.
Satan does Whisper in our ears, and that distracts us, so we take a Look
round, see how the other runners are doing, and then trip in the process.
But, if we let him, Jesus comes right along and Puts us back on our feet
again, and we can learn not to trip in the Future. If we were to say to
Jesus, Don't help me, I'm content just sitting here for a while, that Kinda
lowers our chance of even finishing the Race.
We could look at it as, insted of a Race, An Obstical COrse. Everyone is
working togeather, and the Leaders usally stay at the Back (LEaders are
usally the ones who are more capible, or stronger than the Rest). But
occasinally someone gives up, they get tired, bored, and things like that,
or they find something they like even better, But Luckily most of these
times one of the Leaders Spends some time Encourging them again, and they
continue till the end.
I hope you don't mind me adding to your Anology, but I think it still
worked.
Written By Jon (I'm 17 now)


Jared's Reply (Also the 20th)

I've always believed that Jesus is what supports the church, the Law/God
is what everyone is trying to achieve right but that is impossible to
do. What Jesus did was not come from above the Law and destroy it which
is what he could have done but he came from far below it and accepted
the full brunt of it on himself. When he did that he lifted us through
the Law as he rose taking us to where we had never been into the throne
room of the King. That is why the Law still applies because Jesus didn't
destroy but just removed the need for the Law though not God's desire
for us to attempt to obey it in gratitude to him.
Your analogy of the obstacle course was really good Jon and to carry
that a step further: the leader has the hardest job out of everyone it
is his job to 'carry' the team and make sure that they reach the end
therefore if a leader is put with a slow team he will be the very last
person to finish because he must help each team member individually.
But, the leader who has put in the hard yards for the team will be the
one to receive the trophey and most of the praise. Think about Toddy,
not saying he's perfect but he is an excellent captain, he is one of the
most hard core guys on his team and he never gets riled with the ref and
leads very much by example he may not be the try-scorer but as captain
he is the one congratulated at the end of each match. So its a choice
between being a sheep and doing the minimum and being the captain and
receiving the trophey.


Jon's Reply
In saying that, I do think that he Did destroy a good part of the "Law" of
the times, by showing the religious leaders of the times that they were no
longer doing what they were doing for the right reasions, and that they had
currupted the Church. BUT insted of just destroying them, he made it clear
to them that they were wrong, and they resented this because they knew if
they changed they would loose their power over everyone.
He also Made things like "Love your enemy" a big thing, where as before
that, people pretty much hated their enemys, and he wasn't scared to break
down the boundrys between the Jews and the other people in the world (IE
Semaritians).
I do agree that he Removed the Need for the Law, but in some cases that
dosn't work because they don't realize this (IE the KKK (Extreme example))

If your stuck with a SLow team, then wont it be a bigger accomplishment when
they Cross the Finish line. God took on the Slowist team through Jesus, The
entier Human race, and think of the rewards we all get because of this.
Incredible really

Today, through the group at school, Someone was converted. Praise the Lord.

Jesus compared us all to Sheep, but I think that, even within the Sheep
Kingdom, there are leader sheep that people Follow. So Jesus is the
Shepared, and Some of us are the "Leader Sheep" (I belive that God has plans
for me in that line of Sheepyness) and some of us are the Ordanary sheep.
BUT all of us are still Sheep and all still need the Love and Guidance of
the Shepard, without whom we'd all be Lost.

I'll repete another thing I put at the Bottom of another message I sent:
I love the U2 song - Walk on. Its message is bascally, "the only baggage we
can bring is all that we can't leave behind." It lists at the end tones of
things that we "can Leave Behind" at the end of the song, Heres the last bit
of the song anyway:
Leave it behind
YOur've got to leave it behind
All that you fashion
All that you make
All that you build
All that you break
All that you measure
All that you Steal
All this you can leave behind
All that you reason
All that you sense
All that you speek
All you dress up
All that you scheme

To me its saying, Why do you need all these things if in the long run they
count for nothing. These things can blind us when we are looking towards the
fisnihing line, and cause Us to run into the Stands.
[This was in the Message "Ahahahahaha - A thought...." You might like to
reply to that one, please]

I think I've vented anough for right now
JOn


Jared's Responce

But what he destroyed of that time was not the Law as given by God but
rather nit picking and corruption of that so therefore he was setting
them back on the right track. When a doctor destroys a cancerous growth
you don't get furious with him for doing it but rather thank him that
you restored your health, Jesus was the doctor and was trying to remove
the cancer the loss of the Spirit of the Law but the Pharisees and such
like had had the problem for so long that they didn't even realise that
they had a problem and so got angry when Jesus tried to fix it. Going on
with that (I think I've said this before, oh well) it says that its not
the healthy who need the doctor but the sick, to expand on that its only
those who realise that they are sick before they go to the doctor.
Christians realise that the world is sick yet the world thinks it is
fine therefore it is the Christian's job to show people the need for the
doctor.
He didn't so much make "love your enemy" a big thing as show the truth
of the law. What he actually did was teach the golden rules "love the
Lord your God" and "love your neighbour as yourself" those are the truth
of the law as opposed to what the Pharisees said making each commandent
just that without seeing the underlying principle behind it.
He removed the need for the Law but he did not remove the Law and still
desires us to obey it out of love. Groups like the KKK are not obeying
the Spirit of the Law which is what Jesus requires for us to do but
rather not following any Law not because they don't think it counts but
because they don't know it.

The problem with Jesus' team is the fact that some members are faster
than others, some are lagging, some have more skill, some are carrying
huge packs which they won't let the leader help carry, some are stopping
every few metres to discuss the leaders techniques, and some have to be
slowly coaxed over each obstacle or run screaming back to the start and
the leader has to start with them all over again. Also, the fact that
his team accepts members from the other team which leads to problems
because they don't know the code of conduct amongst the members.

Very awesome to hear of the conversion, keep it up mate.

God bless,
Jared May-trix

ps I found the boy with the loaves and fish, he was hiding in John 6:8-9


Jon's reply

I belive the Pharisees were afraid because if they had listened to Jesus,
they would have had to Give up some of their power. They wanted to remain in
control so they just ignored him.
When a Doctor removes a grouth, sometimes we get mad at him because its hard
to walk properly for a while, and therefore some people would rather put up
with the cancer than have to suffer with a Limp for a Bit.
Some people enjoy ignorance, and would rather Deny Jesus from themselves, in
order to remain "Comfortable", and pretend that they don't belive at all,
when they are just trying to keep themselves away from Jesus for some unknow
reason.

Often people View CHristians as Hypocrites, because "We claim that were free
of sin", but that simply is not true. We're all sinners, just were willing
to admit this to Jesus, and he takes the Burden caused by it on behalf of
us.
Very true about the Doctor thing, if someone sees that theres something
wrong with them they'll try getting it fixed, by sometimes they'll get
confused, and insted of going to a Doctor they'll go to a Naturalpath, who
wont fix them but convince them that they are fixed.

The Great thing is that Jesus is Helping all the Teams, and the Leaders. He
dosn't just leave them out in the Cold to work things out for themsleves,
but he acually guides them, and directs them himself when Appropriate. So,
to tie it into the DOctor thing, he helps the slower teams the Most because
they need it the Most.

Jesus is not only like a Doctor, hes like a Nutritionist; he sets us on the
Right path, and then helps us stay on track.

Thanks for being, well there, reading this
Jon

(PS, THanks for that matey)


Jared's responce

That thing about people leaving their comfort zones is like in "The
Magician's Nephew" (by C.S. Lewis) the Magician saw Aslan and heard his
singing yet because he did not like the song he tried to convince
himself that since it was a lion then what he was in fact hearing was a
lion roaring. Rather than hear the beautiful song of the lion he did not
want to go outside his comfort zones and listen to the song. That is the
problem with humanity we reach a good place yet it is so good that when
the time comes for us to leave the place we dig our heels in out of fear
of the unknown, and what once was a good place now has become a rut and
we grow to resent it this. That is why Jesus calls us to leave
everything and follow him for if we take anything with us from where we
left it constantly reminds us of where we were. Then, instead of looking
at the beautiful place through which we travel because we are continuely
looking over our shoulder to the good place.
Sometimes, however, though all we need is to be convinced that we're not
sick, part of God's forgiveness is also the forgiving of ourselves of
the sin. We will never feel free from sin if we don't think that God
won't forgive us this time and therefore because we ask for Jesus to
take the burden he can't because we aren't letting him. We have to let
go and trust in God (I realise that that could also fit in the previous
paragraph).
Jesus will only help the slower team if they cry out to him for if they
are having a great time on their route and are content at that speed
then Jesus won't help them. This is different to them being stuck in a
rut which by the obstacle analogy would be being stuck on the far side
of the first obstacle unwilling to do any work then Jesus will come in
and throw them kicking and screaming over it and do so until they will
try the obstacles themselves. Also, if a team is unwilling to ask for
help then Jesus won't help them though he will keep an eye on them to
make sure that they don't hurt themselves.


Jon's reply to that one

Picture a Climber whos been climbing up a Cliff face for a Few hours. Half
way up they find a Little Ledge that they can Sit down on. So they stop for
a While cause its comfortable.
What would happen if they decided to stay in that Comfort zone?? They would
simply die. They would run out of food and water, and that would be their
end.

Comfort zones can be quite dangerous. We find a Place were we can stay, and
stay there. When we need to move we don't know how, and sometimes it will be
to late (Like if our climber was to encounter a huge storm while on the
Ledge)

We do need constant reminding that God know best, and he is watching out for
us. And the great thing is that he does remind us.

I think Jesus will be helping all the teams, as long as their goal is to
make it to the end, not just be Running the race as a big Social event

Anyways - I gotta scoot
Jon


Side note from Gavin

LOVE the climbing analogy (bg)
�
Hope is NOT a thing with feathers, the thing with feathers is my nephew, and
I have to take him to a specialist in Zurich.


A responce from Jared

A comfortable spot is only comfortable for a time think about when
you're lying in bed on a hot nor-wester night (I don't know how this
applies to you) you roll over because the position you were in was to
hot yet 10 minutes later you find yourself rolling over again to find
another spot. Comfort zones are good for a short stretch of time as a
place to rest, like that climber of yours Jon, but when you remain in
the comfort zone beyond the need for it, it becomes a place of
uncomfort, like the bed. To go back to the climber the thing about
comfort zones is that they are safe and well comfortable and when the
climber looks out over the ledge he sees the danger below and the
difficulty of going upwards so remains in the comfort spot but by
remaining there he will never feel the elation of conquering the cliff.
The same happened to the Israelites when leaving Egypt they may no
longer have been comfortable in Egypt but they knew it and knew what
they could get there while the desert was large and foreboding and they
had not seen or had any reports of what this promised land was actually
like so desired to remain in Egypt where it was 'safe', yet they crossed
the desert and found a land of prosperity and food. Also if we remain in
the comfort zone out of fear of the conditions yet if we remain in that
spot the danger could get worse out there trapping us in the zone also
from a place of comfort the storm always looks worse than it actually
is, like being under a tin roof while it is raining it sounds far worse
than it is and makes you desire to stay under the tin roof even though
the storm is far lighter than you think.
Anyway gotta run, late for a lecture.
God bless,
Jared May-trix


Jon's Reply

I think its more than "never feel the elation of conquering the cliff."
If you stay on that ledge for say a year, say eating moss and drinking rain
water, you're not actually going to have the strength to carry onwards to the
top. You not only won't want to because its easier to stay put, but you also
will find it more and more difficult to progress the longer you leave it.
I believe that we shouldn't just expect that God will keep things the same in
our lives all the time, sure he has a plan, but that doesn't mean we can be
lazy. In fact it probably means that we should be doing something more (and
therefore less comfortable)
The Israelites took their minds off the Goal (Promised land) and set them on
the Problems. If they adopted the Attitude "God knows what he's doing, lets
do our part in seeing that it works out" then they probably would have got
there a lot quicker, and maybe even more of them would have actually enjoyed
the land for themselves.

Well, I must note that I'm surprised that my Climber analogy is actually
quite popular. I mean, I came up with it, and I'm me.

See yams
Jon


Jared's Reply

It's all to with strings, once the devil has got you 'hooked' on
something no matter what it is drugs, pornography, food he has a string
attached to you which you can't break you can abstain from it for a long
time but eventually you will turn back it to it and the devil has
another string tossed over you. Eventually, without even realising it
you're trapped and you continue on the path you're on, and once you
reach this place you find it harder and harder to turn to look to God
who can sever the cords draped over you. Once the devil has made sure
that your head is trapped looking forward then he begins to tempt you in
other matters, chucking even more cords over you, and is now able to
perform all other sorts of illicit acts in front of you which he knows
you won't fight against because otherwise your indiscretion could be
revealed. And Jesus is looking on with sympathy just waiting for you to
turn to him to cut the cords and you sit there stubbornly refusing to
turn to him because then you are stepping into the light and will have
your sins and weaknesses revealed. I think that relates in with your
analogy of the climber being to weak to climb the cliff after a long
period on the cliff.
By the way correct me if I'm wrong Gavin but is not one of the rules of
climbing never to stop for too long else your muscles seize up and you
can't go on. Also with climbing in most cases you have a belayer to
catch you if you fall, I wonder who our belayer would be in this
situation?
God bless,
Jared May-trix


Jon's Reply

I think in this case it probably wouldn't be a Belayer. Insted theres
probably someone else climbing with us making sure that when we fall we
don't hit the ground, catching us when we fall.
The climb can be quite hard cause we've always got these huge backpacks on
full of stuff, but our friend would be more than happy if we gave it to him
to carry on behalf of us (Especially if you were to hang onto in it would
result in you falling to the ground, because your fall would be alot
harder).

I definatly agree with the whole being tied down to various 'sins' by the
Devil. But they don't have to be sins.
Working for money isn't really a sin, but we can let that "take over our
lives" can change our thinking over various matter, like rethinging before
giving away our hard earned money.
Or reading a Good science fiction book isn't in itsself a sin, but if you
cut down on your bible reading to make up for it then your probably going to
hinder yourself a bit.

Quite often we use the fact that were "tied into" something as an excuse to
do it again. Sometimes at the time of the crime, we tell oursleves, "well it
dosn't really matter, Its not accually a sin, don't worrie about it"
etc.etc.
I think its often because getting rid of this thing, what ever it is, means
change, and change is uncomfortable. Sometimes, we would rather remain
sinners than make some huge Life changes, cause they mean soo much work.
"We all say, that it was ok, to live our own way, withouot God"
Thats also relivent to us "Converted". Although we Belive and everything,
sometimes we redefine the rules for ourselves.
We sometimes say we can live how ever we want because we haved been saved.
WRONG answer, Like whats his face said, Jesus terms, not our own.

I hope I didn't, of havn't offened anyone, I'm not sure how, but if I had,
um... Whats a word I can say insted of Sorry??

Gedday
Jon


And a reply from Jared

But (again correct if I'm wrong, Gavin) but is that not the job of the
belayer though in this case he's at the top of the cliff and is 1ifting
us most of the time but is hoping for the day when we can reach out and
grab the cliff ourselves to carry ourselves and be a benefit to others.
Those backpacks are carrying 'all we can't leave behind' eh Jon. Also
the higher you are going to hit the ground less heavily proportionally
than if you were lower down by critical speeds and such like. The more
you can't leave behind the harder the climb is, to refer to that
tramping trip again Gavin, we went up this path (Moss Pass) which I'm
sure was near vertical with a pack on your back the going was so hard
but the second someone else carried the pack it was so easy. Also if you
hand your pack to the Jesus then you better be ready for him to empty it
out and repack dumping anything that is useless. Once again refering to
that tramp ther was this little 4th former and right at the start of the
tramp she handed over her 90L pack (if you don't know tramping terming
90L is huge the usual size is about 65-70L) which was packed to
overflowing and she was going to try a 10 day tramp with this they ended
up sending about one quarter over her gear back to her dismay.

Is not money, however, the root of all evil, and is not easier for a
camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into
heaven. The more you have the more you can't leave behind, think about
the story of the 2 coppers and the rich man's gifts Jesus said that her
gift was greater than his for she gave all that she had whereas the rich
man could not give it all. "Working for money isn't really a sin" It
depends on who you are working for if you are working just to gain money
then it is wrong but if we are doing so in worship to God and to benefit
his people then it is good.

Whenever we try to redefine the rules we shouldturn back to the gospels
and the beatitudes Jesus redefined the rules and set an impossible
standard just think of that and then think on how loose our rules are
that we obey. You can take Romans 14 too far also we should always make
sure we are obeying the 10 commandments and chuck them out the window
because we don't think they're applicable to us.
God bless,
Jared May-trix
ps was it Teem Dawkins?
pps Jon your emails grammer/spelling is coming along nicely.


And from Jon:

I think I was thinking more along the lines of (what I think it is called) a
free climb. You know, you climb up and every now and then you you hammer
another nail in to the Rock, and tie your self to it, so if you fall you
wont fall too far.

When we fully hand give our lives to CHrist, I belive that he does Empty out
our Packs, and we can only truly hand over our lives when were ready to see
all the earthly stuff we have slaved over be thrown away.
Once we have rid of our brudens however, we will find it easyer to climb,
and we will be able to help others in their climb.

Its ok to be rich, as long as thats not your life. If you lost all your
beongings, would you become super depressed? If the answer is Yes (And in
most cases it would be) then you probably need to drop some of your load..

I accually kinda Disagree with the whole taking ROmans 14 too far, and
following the 10 commandments.. Sure, we should be following them, but if
were truly following Romans 14 then we are following them anyway. We can't
claim that some rules don't apply to us, or whatever, cause we always know
right and wrong, and should always be in the right. If were always in the
right then we are following the ten commandments and Romans 14!!
Love God and do what you like... As long as our motives are pure, and were
truly living for God, then we are doing right, and therefore we don't a list
of rules, cause were already following them, but to a deeper level. We will,
not only be following Gods rules, but living for Him. So we wont be doing a
Minimium like the rules demand, but going all out to WOrship, and to guide,
and to Help save, and To love and to share, and to praise and to.....

Thanks - Jon
(PS, I'm accually finding I can think a bit more clearly now too. Thanks for
the 'I can now spell' comment!!)


NOTE: This convo Is still going - The last message was Added/Written on the 18th of August








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